I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. One can only guess at the motive behind their inaction, but even with the most basic discernment skills one could easily surmise that the money train was at the heart. What I see, I cant un-see; what I know I cant un-know its in my knower! And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. The film released in theaters in 2010 and has been a hit on DVD. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. Also want to acknowledge it took courage to write that letter knowing your children might be kicked out of school. If a familys personal pain about a very private matter doesnt fit that category, I dont know what would. John: I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. That movie became a kind of a shibboleth at our church when it came out. Nice job. First question: when was this letter written and sent? Whose job is the ministry? Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. But, I aint Paul, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see how this sorts itself out in eternity. His newest outreach into the community is that he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. Why is he going public six years later? Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Churches will line up for this. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. God bless, Law Prof. My heart goes out to you. PRESBYTER = ELDER = OVERSEER = BISHOP = PASTOR = SHEPHERD. Funny how highly institutional types value the written word of God, yet despise the teaching of godly elders that is available to one and all in countless books written through the ages. Ken F (aka Tweed): The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. I was at a Lenten service and helping with confirmation this evening. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. We were seated in the folding chairs with our children, had 6 at the time, the oldest 11, the youngest 2. You participated in making what is now a public mockery (an absurd misrepresentation) of the holy the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the Seventies, I got mixed up in an end-of-the-world cult Fellowship(TM) that didnt have any single leader figure only a plurality of (20-to-25-year old) elders. He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. I do not believe this is an endorsement of P&P, but I do believe this shows fear. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. WHERE TO FIND US. From all the people I know in those churches, I think thats exactly what happens! This, along with the embracing of the whole seeker-friendly, mega-church model caused us to leave the church and people we loved, difficult as it was to explain. As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. I agree, Jeff Chalmers Yowzers, you have me stumped. Harvest Bible Church is a non-denominational, non-charismatic, evangelical Protestant church located in Northwest Houston in the Cypress community. Theres so much we dont know. the powerbrokers have manipulated everyone to heavily invest their finances, their time, energy, their relationships, and their own life in the institution. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. You are used to being in control of who sees what. Which almost conquered my soul. Who can say? Whats chilling is you can still see the cult hold harvest has on him and others as he desribes his felling in the beginning of the letter. He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. The teenage years are an awesome time to grow in Christ. fear of the evil, scary worldly world. Truth is real. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. These snakes congregate in the pit together! It was given to the elders two months ago. His new incognito Floridian Santa Claus look wont stop this. If you had anything, Dallas, youd have shared it. Thats too deep to answer. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters, but isnt this illegal? dee: Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra, When you come to a fork in the road, take it. -Yogi Berra. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. Since beginning its training center, Harvest Bible Chapel has helped established over 193 church plants across the country and around the world. Or would they even care? Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. Some may, and some may not know what the elders of a church are, and therefore, we might find this to be a much needed study regarding the church that Jesus established. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. Or are we to believe he just held back on refuting all this defamation out of a righteous desire to turn the other cheek?
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