But sometimes that's where we end up. Not that youre to blame for it. The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. Please be assured that I didnt use the phrase Hurting people hurt people combatively, but I wont deny it may have been unwise. Methinks you proclaimed the gospel. Medications did not help me, either. (LogOut/ I get full after two. I hadnt thought of it in just that way; I just knew it was um foolishness. Im not sure about that. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. and drive with children while drunk! He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. I have read it several times, actually. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. 4. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? Its too much for some families. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. But the life of our loved ones is at stake. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. I have had plastic surgery three times. Hospitalization with detox and follow-up care by his physician He had never slept through an earthquake before even the small ones. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? He was defrocked by the RPCGA, a denomination his father never had anything to do with. Even Jehovahs Witnesses dont shun entire families for the alleged sins of one family member. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? How do you realistically deal with the tragedies hes faced with those beliefs? The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. They and their families are all the better for it. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . I dont get your reasoning on any of this. I am not sure one can blame leukemia on a toxic waster problem with surety. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Im so sorry, I promise I wont ever do it again is the first line of defense of the alky, no extra charge for the tears. Nothing in life is full-proof. We had missionaries , elders and some pastors come to our group, they were in such pain and could not share in their Christian communities. There are many women, including older women, who struggle with addictions. He just masks it well.. Those children need help as well. Most of us are in agreement that Sproul Jr. needs treatment for alcoholism. And that she suffered injuries, too. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. No, I definitely do support them. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. People who dont even pick up a drink can have unhealthy behaviors. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. A sort of similar tale in our county. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. I got the idea that the commenter thought it was a pity that there hadnt been any earlier DUIs, because the judge would not have let him off so easily if there had been a past record. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. Contra Costa County? RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. I hope they do. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. We really need to drop it as this point. RC seems to be a bit dodgy here. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? The guy may have suffered tragedy but we all do in some way, shape or form. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. Im glad you got out. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! In a practical sense drunk drivers express a form of contempt toward others as malevolent as any ISIS terrorist. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. Each situation is different. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. I thought perhaps that JA and Barbara were referring to the entirety of RC Jrs choices and damage inflicted from his lofty position as spiritual authority, even though from the context that wasnt obvious. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. Hopefully they get to Al-Anon and counseling. How can a nature be crucified? My brother is a drug addict & alcoholic. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. He said I was his first patient to do that and he complies since he knew we are medical people and could spot a problem with a clot. Has that been reported on or discussed? Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? RC Jr also refused to leave. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Today RC Sproul Jr pleaded not guilty and requested a trial by jury. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. My Comment was Deleted But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. oh my goodness .. (Dee replied) He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. throw him out of the house. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. No one wanted to hear it, not a soul I could blank off, which is fine, but so could the people I work with. And, yes, there is more. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. We were reluctant to write about this since he continued in ministry under his dad. 2. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. I have had plastic surgery three times. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. He has suffered tragedies, yes. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. But her children have been wounded and scarred. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Basically, he lied. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease . Gail wrote: There is no cause and effect, no correlation at all, between RC Jrs family deaths and his heavy drinking. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. Velour wrote: If he didn't lie, why would he later plead guilty? I think God understands this. But interventions and treatment does work. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Velour wrote: Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions. The group gathered around him to pray. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. Sounds like RC Sr. also needs treatment as do the non-drinkers in the family. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Alcohol is generally an excuse. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. I love this story. Interesting you can say this. I absolutely am. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! (And that was pretty much the end of our short relationship, such as it was.). He should be fired. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. She was in a very fragile place. Hes been a heavy drinker the majority of his life and hes proud of it. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. But sometimes thats where we end up. So it makes it very difficult to believe theres anything genuine about it now. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. . It is also true that there is an even higher standard for church pastors and leaders a number of scriptures address this issue. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. Well, according to their own theology, hes not. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. So far youve been entirely nebulous about it. There was no need for pushback, just as there was no need for you to wrongly assume that we are against treatment (which Barbara clarified above). But interventions and treatment does work. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . When I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly attended my church. Heres my list again: Her parents didnt get to see her graduate from high school or college. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. That he should get treatment; and Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. My uncle was a drunk driver. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Wow! And have a happy upcoming wedding anniversary. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Those two do not go together. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. i think of my agnostic relatives. and just as simply, they dont drive afterward someone who only drank soft things is the designated driver. I think. Here is psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan explaining Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). Deb said: Back in 1972 shoulder seat belts werent installed in vehicles. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. 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